"Flying Saucers," revisited
Jun. 22nd, 2025 01:25 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
ecosophia
I was greatly amused to see a recent article in the Wall Street Journal talking about how the US military deliberately fostered UFO beliefs in order to provide camouflage for secret aircraft tests. Here's a non-paywalled piece about it: https://peakd.com/news/@arraymedia/ufos-investigation-reveals-area-51-myths-serve-as-cover-for-military-experiments
The reason this amused me, of course, is that I published a book in 2009 pointing this out. Of course the Wall Street Journal didn't mention that fact, but The UFO Phenomenon -- republished in 2020 as The UFO Chronicles -- made this same point with quite a bit of evidence. Once again, an idea I put into circulation seems to be circling slowly inward, on its way to general acceptance. It's an interesting testimony to the power of the fringes, and the mere fact that it doesn't have my name attached to it is hardly an issue.
One thing that the Wall Street Journal didn't discuss -- no surprises here -- is that not all strange things seen in the sky come out of Lockheed's "Skunk Works" or the other factories churning out classified military technology. This doesn't mean that some of them come from other worlds; there are very good reasons to think that interstellar travel isn't an option for intelligent species, including hard limits on how much energy any actual (as opposed to imaginary) species will ever have to hand. It remains the case that some UFO-related encounters have weird parallels in ancient folklore and shamanic experience, and others seem to relate to anomalous natural phenomena not yet understood by our scientists. It'll be interesting to see if the Wall Street Journal ever gets around to talking about those.
(no subject)
Date: 2025-06-22 06:13 pm (UTC)A couple of things here. Firstly, this is not a new theory--not only people on the fringes such as yourself, but also "standard" DoD mouthpieces such as Annie Jacobsen have published works on this (see, for example https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Area_51:_An_Uncensored_History_of_America%27s_Top_Secret_Military_Base -- unfortunately, the book is a bit of a waste of time)
Secondly, although I agree with you on many things, I think you are simply outright wrong on this one. While DoD definitely has some advanced tech, the things that come up on these radar far exceed what our current theory suggest is even possible (and if they far exceed what we think is possible aerodynamically, then it is not a huge leap to assume that perhaps things that far exceed what we think about transportation or energy consumption are also possible).
Their circumstances also suggest that these are not American in origin (you do not do stupid things near nuclear sites or naval aircraft carriers, for example--especially friendly ones and particularly around your own ones).
I realize that I will never convince you or anybody, and I have no interest in trying to do so, but I (respectfully) note that there is some irony in your criticizing the mainstream scientific establishment for being so narrow-minded about magic and yet refusing to acknowledge the possibility of extraterrestrial visitors.
For the sake of discussion, however, and just out of curiosity: What kind/how much evidence would you require to change your mind?
Anyway, I am not trying to be argumentative--I just believe that the preponderance of evidence weighs against your views in this case.
(no subject)
Date: 2025-06-22 06:51 pm (UTC)I'm open to the possibility of extraterrestrial visitation; my best guess is that interstellar travel isn't an option, but I don't claim to be omniscient on the subject. I simply want to see some evidence that couldn't easily be faked with current technology. So far, that hasn't been forthcoming; what has been forthcoming is quite a bit of evidence that the Air Force Office of Special Investigations has manufactured a great many hoaxes (the MJ-12 documents, for example), and quite a bit of enthusiastic circular reasoning from the pro-ET crowd.
But then I also predicted in my book that no matter what gets revealed, both the true believers ("UFOs are spacecraft from other planets") and the pseudoskeptics ("UFOs are all hallucinations and hoaxes") will remain fixed in their belief systems. Both have embraced standards of proof that exclude the possibility of disproof.
(no subject)
Date: 2025-06-22 07:06 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2025-06-22 09:42 pm (UTC)Conclusive Proof
Date: 2025-06-23 12:08 am (UTC)In my case, aliens showing up unambigiously and being really obvious in their activities. No cjaracter doubted that the Martians in The War of the Worlds were razing England with heat rays. Until then, hoaxes, hallucinations, or mistaken sci-fi interpretations of magical phenomena are more plausible explanations for reports of UFOs.
And our civilization unexpectedly developing interstellar capabilities would be proof of concept, and make me open minded towards UFOs being extraterrestrial spacecraft.
Patrick
(no subject)
Date: 2025-06-23 03:00 am (UTC)(OP) OK, before I go too far, let me state that I used to be extremely skeptical about alien visitors a decade ago--one of my earliest memories about aliens involved seeing some crappy Fox "documentary" that claimed to perform an alien autopsy on TV (I think this is the one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GN_OSZYR6RA). I remember thinking that LAPD's testimony during the Rodney King case was more credible, and I was outright hostile to any claims about alien visits from then onwards.
It was really those US Navy videos and the numerous follow-up interviews with the people involved (along with a few books) that began the process of changing my mind. The "grainy" videos don't surprise or discourage me--any footage that employs state-of-the-art radar/IR/optical systems are going to be deliberately degraded because the US does not want to reveal to adversaries (or even allies) its technology. However, this cuts both ways--the US could just as easily release top quality fraudulent videos if it chose to do so, and yet it hasn't.
I would reconsider my current position if *any one* of the following occurs:
1. The pilots who recorded the video admit to fraudulence, or other credible people who have been involved in this (e.g. Christopher Mellon) admit to simply making this stuff up
2. Better or more complete footage of these events is released that provides any plausible alternative explanation.
3. Somebody or group (not necessarily the USN) finds a *plausible* way to recreate events that are similar to those released on those videos. I have read someone claim to be able to reproduce these events in theory, but they demand such an extensive list of non-plausible circumstances that it was quite frankly embarrassing.
4. (The most likely one to come true, I think) A lack of increasingly convincing proof emerges over the next ~10 years. The reason that this would be conclusive to me is that cameras, radar, etc. are getting *much* better in terms of resolution, in terms of capturing larger amounts of the spectrum (e.g. millimeter wave frequencies), and in terms of ubiquity (e.g. Starlink satellites, drones, etc.).
Consequently, within 10 years, many countries and even commercial services will be able to provide images and videos that are at least on par with the (unredacted) tools used by the USN ~20 years ago. If none of these tools pick up comprehensive/consistent UFO activity, then I would be quite happy to revert to the idea about no intelligent visitors. I would unfortunately also have to revisit my current theory that planet earth is just some alien lunatic asylum and have to come to terms with the depressing idea that our species somehow is the pinnacle of our solar system's evolution. Oh well--nothing that a few decades of therapy and heavy drug use can't resolve, I guess....
5. I am just about to start learning divination (you mentioned your Sacred Geometry Oracle deck in a Magic Monday response about a month ago, and I finally received it...) If I develop any confidence and proficiency in it, maybe I'll let the cards tell me whether or not Aliens have visited us...
Come to think of it, has anybody who is adept with Divination ever tried asking about this? What answers did you get? I ask out of pure curiosity...Similarly, if anybody has suggestions to a complete novice as to how to ask about this, I would love to read them.
(no subject)
Date: 2025-06-23 03:35 am (UTC)As for humanity being the pinnacle of evolution in our solar system, er, evolution has no pinnacle. It radiates outward in all directions; we represent the furthest that one particular line of evolution among terrestrial mammals has proceeded in one direction at this one point in the earth's long history. There's some evidence that species at least equal to our intelligence have existed in previous cycles of time on this planet, and thus it's entirely plausible that others will exist after us; it's also quite possible that there are beings in and around this world whose minds are so different from ours that we can't even recognize them as intelligent.
Furthermore, occult tradition has it that intelligence is actually very difficult for beings in material incarnation to achieve, but much less so for beings in less dense bodies. The connection between apparent UFO encounters and shamanic experiences is relevant here; it's arguably not necessary to postulate spaceships to accept the idea that we can communicate with nonhuman and, indeed, superhuman intelligences...
(no subject)
Date: 2025-06-23 03:51 am (UTC)Furthermore, occult tradition has it that intelligence is actually very difficult for beings in material incarnation to achieve, but much less so for beings in less dense bodies. The connection between apparent UFO encounters and shamanic experiences is relevant here; it's arguably not necessary to postulate spaceships to accept the idea that we can communicate with nonhuman and, indeed, superhuman intelligences...
Do you know of any theories that explain why intelligence is more difficult in material incarnation? When I was growing up, I learned that one of the big debates centered on whether non-Carbon-based intelligence was possible (Carbon has the property of being able to bond with many elements and to itself in long chains), but of course this debate was conducted by materialists, and so non-material incarnations were ever considered.
I don't know how to interpret shamanic experiences--maybe I will be able to eventually, but the "language" seems fundamentally incompatible with the western scientific principles I was raised with. It doesn't mean that they are incorrect, but I just don't know how to "grasp" their descriptions, and so I wouldn't know how to interpret their utterances with respect to reality or aliens or whatever. However, if other intelligent life can exist in non-material form, can it also choose to move from one place at the far reaches of the universe to Earth in nonmaterial form and then assume a material form? I don't know the rules/constraints of this game...
Thanks for mentioning Jacques Vallee and John Keel--I now have a starting point :)
(no subject)
Date: 2025-06-23 04:14 am (UTC)2) The occult teaching has it that intelligence is not a property of matter; the brain is no more a source of thought than a radio receiver is the source of the music that plays through it. Matter being dense, sluggish, and resistant, intelligence (a property of other, non-material modes of existence) has to be stepped down considerably to function through a material brain -- it's like listening to really good music through a cheap old-fashioned radio, with poor reception and a single small loudspeaker.
3) The occult claim is that each solar system is an evolutionary unit and is separated by what is called a Ring-Pass-Not from other solar systems. That doesn't mean there's a shortage of beings to talk to! Every visible planet in the solar system and, ahem, the invisible ones as well -- we got to "dark matter" long before the physicists did -- is inhabited, though Earth just at the moment is the only one that has appropriate conditions for biological life of our type, and thus for intelligent beings with bodies of meat. (In the early days of the solar system, Venus had that role; later on, by some teachings, it'll be Mars.)
4) Vallee's Passport to Magonia is a classic; Keel's works are more uneven, but his The Mothman Prophecies is perhaps the best way to plunge into the dark and spooky heart of the phenomenon, where the extraterrestrial mirage gives way to a giddy kaleidoscope of high strangeness that challenges our most basic concepts about what is real.
Klaatu - great band
Date: 2025-06-22 08:33 pm (UTC)The Carpenters came out with a cover of "Calling Occupants" that got more radio play, and Klaatu didn't have another big hit or album with their four follow up efforts. FWIW, I'm a fan of "Routine Day" and "December Dream", as well as "Subrosa Subway".
As for extraterrestrials, physics as we understand it and the vastness of space certainly makes it doubtful they've arrived, but if they ever do show up I hope they're friendly....
interest of intelligent species in spacefaring
Date: 2025-06-22 08:57 pm (UTC)Apart from limitations on how much energy any species would require for a technology enabling physical interstellar travel, few people seem to have given much thought to what would motivate an intelligent species to attempt it.
Based on a sample size of all the intelligent species on this planet and what we know of physics and astronomy, here are several considerations:
1. Species must have evolved or otherwise developed an adaptation to cosmic radiation (like Frederick Pohl's Heechee).
2. Species must be social or in a symbiotic relationship to a social species.
3. Species must have at least one sense organ capable of directly apprehending the existence of stars. Otherwise stars will be legendary, theoretical, or a scientific curiosity that few members of the species care about.
4. Species members must travel during some part of their life cycle, as opposed to applying their combined resources to modifying their local environment to conditions which allow the species to thrive. If the species does not explore its own planet, why would it think about traveling somewhere else?
We don't have any idea how common intelligent species are in our galaxy, so this set of considerations would not rule out all of them. It rules out a good many.
(no subject)
Date: 2025-06-22 09:05 pm (UTC)And there are writen accounts of contemporary human interaction and cooperation with extraterrestrials.
Based on these respectable sources, dear sir, I must strongly disagree with your scepticism.
(no subject)
Date: 2025-06-22 09:44 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2025-06-23 03:33 am (UTC)Well then might I suggest, that this just might be a case of exaggeration. Like the time when little Sally saw the neighbour putting on a Santa Claus costume to surprise his kids, and she went to her parents and was dead set on the reality of firstly; Santa Claus was real. And second, he was driving a grey Mazda SUV.
This might be a case of some childish apeling confusing the Mi-Go family van for an interstellar crouser.
Let’s be honest. What do the hairless apes know or advanced space navigation.
(no subject)
Date: 2025-06-23 03:36 am (UTC)UFO encounters
Date: 2025-06-23 01:52 am (UTC)It remains the case that some UFO-related encounters have weird parallels in ancient folklore and shamanic experience, and others seem to relate to anomalous natural phenomena not yet understood by our scientists. It'll be interesting to see if the Wall Street Journal ever gets around to talking about those.
What would be good sources to explore the above phenemonon?
And is the above phenonemenon what would be called daimonic or imaginal?
Thanks.
Re: UFO encounters
Date: 2025-06-23 01:55 am (UTC)Evidence
Date: 2025-06-23 03:17 am (UTC)Re: Evidence
Date: 2025-06-23 03:37 am (UTC)Well, I am happy to be proven wrong, but:
1. These do not come from a "grab bag of purported sightings"--they come from US Navy footage, and they have been confirmed my numerous US Navy pilots who were there, and they were then cleared for release by the Pentagon. You may choose to disbelieve the narrative behind what was released, but you should at a bare minimum be intellectually honest about the evidence provided by the claims
2. "interfere in our technology and cannot be ours "
This part is not even remotely far-fetched--in fact, "interfering in our technology" describes all Chinese and Russian Electronic Warfare capabilities.
Re: Evidence
Date: 2025-06-23 03:05 pm (UTC)The wrong questions being asked.
Date: 2025-06-23 12:30 pm (UTC)I was struck by what are the correct questions and what are the wrong ones.
I have been reading various off the wall books like the Ecology of Souls by Joshua Cutchin and the Messengers by Mike Clelland (about owls and ufos). They seem to conclude that UFOs are perhaps associated with the dead or another dimension. Both do not think that the ET idea is the one that people should be asking.
The book on owls related how many people see owls in odd places and later remember a weird encounter of a ufo. The owls are some sort of screen memory for something else.
The current raft of books coming out are not assuming ETs.
What questions should people be asking?
I remember my neighbor who as a professional astronomer studied ufos. He thought that there were all sorts of unknown unknowns out there to make any sense of ufos. He decided to plot sightings on a map. He found star patterns and other geometric shapes. I wonder what questions he was asking.
WSJ article
Date: 2025-06-23 06:33 pm (UTC)Useful tip for those who buy used books. The copy of UFO book I received smelled of cigarette smoke. Ugh. I purchased some flat aquarium filters--activated charcoal inside permeable enclosure-- and placed one inside a zipper plastic bag with the book. The odor disappeared in a few weeks.
Rita
UFOs/Biblical accounts of angels?
Date: 2025-06-23 06:44 pm (UTC)Could the biblical accounts of angelic encounters be an example of these? The first thing an angel says when it appears in the bible is "Fear not," so I'd imagine they're rather alarming. I remember looking at some Orthodox Christian icons of angels and noticing how spooky they looked. The thought that came to mind was "they look extraterrestrial," and a moment later I thought "which, in fact, they are!" https://th.bing.com/th?id=OPHS.1NfwlsxGB45%2fmQ474C474&w=200&h=220&c=17&dpr=1.6&pid=21.1
(no subject)
Date: 2025-06-23 08:27 pm (UTC)Summoning UFOs
Date: 2025-06-24 12:16 am (UTC)